Tue 12 Dec 2006
My Beef with Vegetarians (also, People for the Eating of Tasty Animals)
Posted by me under brief thoughts1 Comment
So everyone knows about PETA. They are the guys (& gals) who get bent out of shape about the mistreatment of pretty animals like seals, rabbits and puppy dogs (it’s okay to abuse ugly animals; sorry narwhals, manatees and slugs.) Like the “pro-choice” people, PETA likes to misrepresent their intentions. Pro-choice advocates are not about choices, but rather about a woman’s “right” to kill her unborn child. Likewise, PETA has little to do with ethical treatment of animals and a lot to do about vegetarianism. They don’t want animals to just be treated ethically, they want people to stop eating animals. Let’s just tell it like it is, okay?!?
I think people are vegetarian for one or more of the following reasons:
1- Farmers (allegedly) treat animals poorly
2- Eating meat is immoral (or makes them feel sick)
3- Killing anything is wrong (produces bad karma?)
4- Medical reasons/weight loss
5- Killing animals is cruel because it causes those animals to experience pain
6- It’s in vogue
Let’s be clear, I am surely against cruelty to animals. However, I think animals are inherently different than people. I’m of the opinion that nature provided animals for us to eat. It seems very natural and circle-of-life’ish to me. I love fresh Chesapeake crab, a chicken teriyaki bowl and, on the rare occasion, a well cooked fillet mignon. On the other hand, I don’t think it’s okay to shoot a cat with a bb gun, or to hunt animals for “sport”, or to mistreat animals in general. But back to the vegetarians. I’m at loss to understand their viewpoint. Perhaps a few of you readers can enlighten me?
What makes it okay to eat plants and not animals? Because animals are more like people? Because they have a complex nervous system? Where do you draw the line? What about animals that don’t have a complex nervous system? What about those creatures that seem to exhibit properties of both plants and animals? Is coral okay? What about Venus fly-traps or pitcher plants (they eat meat)? Would you eat a freshwater diatom?
Do you think that because animals are more like people, that all animals “feel” pain? Isn’t that an anthropomorphism?
What about fish? Reptiles? Amphibians? Insects? Do they have feelings too? How would we ever know?
What about when animals eat other animals. Is that bad? Would you like to ban carnivorous animals?
Though omnivorous animals might be able to swear off meat (though they’d have to find some locally available high-protein source), lions in the Saharan desert, for example, would have a hard time finding suitable vegetable protein even if they could eat it (a lion’s teeth can’t chew grass well I understand). As well, obligate carnivores (or true carnivores) “lack the physiology required for the efficient digestion of vegetable matter”, if they eat plants, they often vomit.
Cellulose (plant) digestion and nutrient assimilation is simply not possible for true carnivores. (And it can be difficult for humans too, have you ever tried eating grass? Your stomach lacks the enzymes to break it down, unlike a cow, for instance.) “Effective digestion of plant food requires a means of dealing with the most important structural material of plants, cellulose – a carbohydrate polymer which is extremely insoluble and remarkably resistant to chemical attack.”
But I digress… Tell me, why are *you* a vegetarian?
References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore
http://www.chu.cam.ac.uk/~ALRF/giintro.htm
http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/sabc/biocontrol_biobasis.htm
I 100% agree with this posting. Just eat organic and farm-raised meat, that way, well, it didn’t live in a cage and you can’t cry about it.
P.S. I could use a steak right now.
I did a vegetarian thing for several weeks in October/November. Mostly because it seemed like an awesome thing to do + also to stop eating out as much.
(Though, that backfired as now I know exactly which places have vegetarian stuff… did you know BK has a veggie burger?)
I got a bunny in October, so maybe it was on my conscience. Anyway, I was glad when it was up so I could eat pepperoni pizza again.
I don’t think it is wrong to eat meat. I do think it is wrong to waste meat and to be cruel. I hunt every year. I get a deer/elk every year. I eat the meat and enjoy it.
PETA is not about anything more than a political agenda. One more minority voice that would like to RULE THE WORLD! (You know I’m right…)
Look everyone, it’s Carolynn C. Duncan, of the hundred dollar business (http://hundreddollarbusiness.wordpress.com/) fame!
She’s been very busy with her kiosk over at the Provo mall, so I’m impressed she took time out to read and comment on my blog post; overwork must have caused her temporary insanity.
I have a bro-in-law who contends that you only need to look at a creature’s teeth to tell what it was made to eat.
To put it in layman’s terms, sharp teeth are for ripping, tearing, and cutting while flatter teeth are meant to grind.
While one can rip, tear, and cut vegetation, it generally has to be ground before digestion. Meat on the other hand needs much less grinding and much more tearing, ripping, etc.
Look at a cow’s teeth and you will find that they are all generally flat topped and therefore useful for grinding up grass.
Look at a cat’s teeth and you will discover that they are generally all very sharp. This is useful for tearing meat.
Human teeth are of both varieties. A human generally has 10 teeth made for eating meat and 8-12 teeth made to grind vegetation. So if you’re missing the owner’s manual for these incredible bodies we live in then maybe the form can define the function for you. We’re meant to eat meat and vegetation.
Two side notes:
1. When my mother was young she decided that she was going to be a vegetarian. She was of the faddish persuasion that Mr. Byrd mentions. About 3 weeks into this experiment her hair started to fall out. Realization: There are protiens in meat that your body needs. (Yes I know you can get them from other sources too, but most people do not. So if you’re going to try a vegetarian lifestyle do some research first.)
2. I have a cousin who had a realization a number of years ago that when she ate meat she didn’t feel well. She stopped eating it altogether. Now she won’t even touch it now because she doesn’t feel well when she does. I think for her that’s great. She does not, however feel a moral imperative to cause others to be vegetarians as well. In similar fashion, I feel no compulsion to push anyone else into being an omnivore. I say eat what you like and keeps you healthy.
Oh, and have a nice day!
For identifying this as purely “political” issue you get caught up in the edge cases that don’t make any sense. If you want other people to take it rationally, perhaps you should first too.
First, animals are animals and plants are plants. They’re different kingdoms and don’t get to be like each other (even when they seem they do, they don’t, aka your venus fly traps). Coral is an animal, and has a nervous system, but lacks pain receptors (which is what vegetarians care about more than a nervous system), and even though you can eat them, it’s mainly a calcium supplement. Eating plants is “fine” because they don’t feel pain, and they don’t feel the effects of being raised inhumanely – if you forget to water your plant, does it make sounds at you and crumple in a heap? Well, maybe it does the latter, but it doesn’t feel pain in doing it. Asking “Why not plants?” is just stupid, sorry. Though if you want to feel guilt when you kill a houseplant, I guess that’s your perogative.
If you think poor treatment is “alleged” you haven’t done any research. The funny thing is often the poor treatment isn’t in humans’ best interest either (mad cow, anyone?)
And one more thing – of course we have omnivorous teeth. But saying that humans at all behave as their bodies tell them is “right” or “natural” is a very odd thought, especially for anyone who’s religious. There’s nothing laughable about being concerned about the welfare of the millions of animals we sequester to our use – unless you also mock people who decide not to drink alcohol.
However, I do understand the annoyance of being attacked for eating meat (no, I’m not a vegetarian, or even close). There is a bit of self-righteousness that one can encounter there.
While I understand that presenting your opinions in such a fashion gets a conversation started quickly (esp. with hidden trolls), some of your logic is lacking, and I think you know it. Perhaps the emotional side of the issue is getting to you too.
Wow, Treu takes me to the cleaners.
Good job! Was I being intentionally flippant in order to get a rise out of people? Why, yes, yes I was! 
Let\’s see, where to start?
I maintain that scientific classification/biological classification/scientific taxonomy is not as clean cut as you might suppose. Here\’s an example: http://www.hmnews.org/article2772.html
I know, I know, it\’s an edge case. Still, if the reason you don\’t eat animals is because you dislike killing things, you might also realize that plants are very much living too.
My off-kilter, bullet-proof logic leap that vegetarians must surely hate carnivorous animals went something like:
1. we should treat all animals humanely (because humans and other nonhumans are both in the same kingdom (amimalia))
2. it\’s bad for people to kill animals
3. therefore: it\’s also bad for animals to kill animals.
As for venus fly traps, sure, they\’re plants but they\’ve eaten animals. Can we eat them? Is it ok for vegetarians to eat animals that die naturally?
Being raised in the rural east, surrounded by a lot of farms, I\’ve seen how farmers treat animals. For the most part, I think that the animals are treated well. To say that all animals raised for food are mistreated/abused is indeed an overstatement. That *some* are is beyond argument.
I didn\’t say that humans should behave as their bodies tell them. I did say I felt that eating meat seemed part of a natural scheme. In any case, I believe that most natural things are in fact *good*. What I can only assume is a veiled sexual reference is out of place– sexual drives are indeed essential and beneficial; it\’s how we exercise and manage those motivations that is important.
Also, I\’m not sure how you mangled my \”natural\” reference to include alcoholism.
Was I too defensive? I very much appreciated your feedback, Treu. I need people to call me to task if I get out of hand.
I highly suggest people do not argue with Mr. Byrd. He seems to be able to rip anything apart that you might conclude from his writings, if your conclusion is incorrect. He’s also very, very smart. This posting to Ryan, it’s kind of like you dragging yourself out of bed in the morning — not much effort, and very little return. If you really want to touch anything that Ryan can master, ask for some of his writings that don’t fit the more domesticated blogging nature of RyanByrd.Net
If that made any sense.. You see, even I feel small next to him — and no, not because he’s strong, he isn’t, but because he makes me feel stupid
thus sayest William “and no, not because he’s strong, he isn’t”
Hmm. Good point Will. But let’s see if that changes in the near future! “Three months for thirty pounds of muscle” here I come!
We’ll both be good to go in 3 months. Bring your gym clothes to work tomorrow so we can leave and hit the gym.
–Will
You’re both a couple of pansies…
Did that get rise?
My name is CONAN! Fear me!
I maintain my opinion that PETA is about political agenda, not about helping animals. Just like the ACLU is all about political power. They want to be able to ‘tell’ us what to do/think/say. They don’t think we can handle that on our own.
Don’t taunt the Byrd!
Ryan,
I plead the fifth on the overwork issue. All I can say is, if you know anyone who wants to work for free… we would sure be willing to use them.
Enough fighting. Entertain us!
http://www.elfyourself.com/?userid=61b09ef61fc86d9761d1a5dG06121514
Fighting? I see no fighting.
I had a longer response prepared, but after letting a few days go by, I realized there’s no sense in preaching to the anti-choir, as it were.
I also watched the latest episode of CSI last night which rather centrally featured a chicken processing plant. It reminded me that animal cruelty is enough in the public perception that those companies that don’t do it feature it rather prominently in their ads (or, as another example, Tyson promoting zero steroids). Those that still have such practices remain quiet. Your smaller farms usually sell their animals as “organic” since that’s the money in small farming. For larger companies, the money is in processing animals as quickly and cheaply as possible.
Saying there aren’t “many” animals treated cruelly in raising and processing is disingenous, or naive at best. Check http://www.hsus.org/farm/resources/research/welfare/welfare_overview.html
Other flags that you were being “flippant” were such usages of “feel[ing]” pain” as an anthropomorphism. Surely a scientist as yourself would know that pain is a physiological and neurological response. Heck, I slept through a whole class about it. I don’t mind flippancy if you’re honest about what you know to be fact or what you believe.
And as to “natural” instincts, I can only apologize for offending you with alcoholism nor did I intend it as veiled innuendo. My response was to Will, with his mentions of teeth and form/function. My point simply is that NO human responds to merely their instincts or innate requirements. Perhaps I should have offered a positive example of this, rather than the myriad of alcohols, opiates, hormones, SSRIs or other restricted (or even OTC) compounds we ingest to get desired effects.
I’ll let your own flavor of ethics let you decide what it is you do that your cruel carnivorous lion does not. Thus, vegetarianism is just another human expression of “This is what my body is meant to do, but my ethics/ability to judge tell me otherwise” and also another example of your flippancy in proposing that PETA should be concerned about nonhumanoids eating meat.
And, St. Nick, that Ryan elf looks…positively ready to rip into a steak.
(Also, I hope you noticed the irony on the half-plant/half-animal link you posted in that, contrary to the title of the article, microbes are neither plant nor animal.
More accurate would’ve been “half-autotroph/half-heterotroph.” But then how would they ever sell newspapers, such a dilemna…)
Oh no, I see a continuation of an arguement, or Ryan simply saying “Whatever” and deciding not to continue this…. Ryan?
By the way, I’m Will. The person who spoke about teeth seems to be Bill. A simple twist of names you feel mean the same thing, I’m sure.
/slap William
“Oh no”? Making an argument is different than having an argument. I’m sorry I didn’t catch on that I was supposed to give up after Ryan disagreed with what I said or William suggested that Ryan’s arguments were so impervious to attack that it’s easier not to try. Guess I didn’t agree, but it’s also easy to see when people would prefer an echo chamber. No complaints from me…I’ll keep looking. You can send email to me if you’d like to reply as I won’t be returning to check here.
And no, I don’t know either you or Bill, so your names have no personal meaning to me for me to remember who said what, and additionally sound the same, so apologies for getting your name wrong, but it’s nothing to do with what you said or didn’t say.
Ah, since emails aren’t actually published, just to correct a mistake: roomsonfire (at) soon.com. Yes, I can tell you are all tripping over your feet to talk about vegetarianism some more.
I’m vegan because, for me, it’s a healthier lifestyle and I refuse to support factory farms. I encourage people to support their local farmers who raise healthier meat, eggs, and dairy anyway at eatwellguide.org.
And if you have a myspace, add me! myspace.com/thetruthaboutpeta.
[...] my continued quest to understand vegetarian mindset, in a previous vegetarian exploration post, I posed a number of yet-unanswered questions about their practices and beliefs. Is eating [...]
Once again, PETA has given a bad name to vegetarians and what some of us really stand for. Although I think PETA originated with good intentions, they are just in-your-face-meat-is-murder extremists. Currently in school, as a graphic design major, I am taking on a project to promote vegetarianism from a non-PETA point of view. There are many other reasons for being vegetarian beyond just not killing and eating animals for their ethical treatment.
For instance, world hunger. The grains that are grown and fed to animals raised for meat could be used to feed millions of starving people in nations less fortunate than those like the U.S. Also, the pesticides and chemicals used on these grains (which are not used on foods for human consumption)wind up polluting the earth, especially the water. And water is something that we can’t afford to waste. Another issue would be just for one’s own health benefits. A vegetarian diet can significantly increase one’s health in many different aspects. I am not saying that a vegetarian diet is for everyone, but if you can do it, why not try?
There are many resources out there that defend being vegetarian from these points of view. Don’t listen to PETA to find out your answers. Look elsewhere. Groups such as the Vegetarian Resource Group and The Vegetarian Society, do a better job of supporting a vegetarian diet, check out their websites at http://www.vrg.org and http://www.vegsoc.org. There are plenty of other resources out there as well. Also, look up the China Health Study, it’s very informative and makes an interesting argument for a vegetarian lifestyle.
I hope that I have helped to at least spark your interest in the subject. Or to at least show that there is more to vegetarianism than what PETA has to say. For an organization with such political limelight, I wish they would actually do a good job of dispersing information. Instead of spending all their time exploiting women in their ads for not wearing fur.
I wish I had more time to actually give you more info, but I am only beginning to gather all of this information myself.
I just hope you don’t hate all of us vegetarians out there just because of a group like PETA.
I appreciate your rationality and calmness in explaining your point of view. i don’t hate you already
I’m led to believe that the problems with world hunger are more complicated than not having enough food. In the US, for example, we frequently pay farmers to leave their fields fallow (unplanted) in order to not over-produce food. I once read that the US alone has the capacity to produce more than enough food for the entire world.
When the United States tried to help Somalia in the 90s distribute food to the famine-starved people, the US was attacked by militias (who were diverting the food from the people); I recall seeing CNN video of bodies of US soldiers being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu. very sad
I do agree that eating fruits and vegetables is very healthy. Once you’ve had an amazing bacon-wrapped, sirloin steak, or Chesapeake Bay Crab, it’s really hard to say no, you know?
All I got to say is, “Bravo to Treu!” Treu’s comments were so clear, logical, and truthful. I fugure that if we should live our lives doing the correct things, then I see no other option than to AT LEAST try out a vegetarian/vegan diet. I understand that being vegetarian might take some sacrifice, but doing the right thing often requires some sacrifice.
On a side note, my oldest sister recently adopted a two-year-old girl from China. When my sister and her husband brought their daughter home, they got her tested and found out that she had 3 out of 4 gene deletion for Thalassemia (similar disease to Sickle Cell Anemia). Basically, 4 gene deletion is death, and with 3 out of 4 deletion would indicate poor health, poor growth, constant blood transfusions and medications to survive. But, my sister and her husband raise their family (5 kids including their newly adopted girl) on a vegan diet. So, within a couple of months, their new daughter was making unheard of strides in stabilizing her condition. The doctors that she meets with every couple of weeks are always amazed at her progress. Here is part of a letter that my niece’s doctor wrote to my sister:
“We are delighted to hear about your wonderful success! Your daughter’s story is one that we would definitely like to include in the survivor network, in our study. Your family in general sounds like a very interesting account to share – in all likelihood your daughter may be one of the few people in the entire world whose parents actively control that condition with diet! She is truly astounding!”
My sister and her family eat very well. There are so many alternative and healthier foods that can be eaten if one pushes themself and goes on a vegetarian/vegan diet. The health benefits of a vegetarian/vegan diet are undeniable. Just do some research, and you can see for yourself.
Vegetarian lifestyle, here I come!
I am a vegetarian-three years this May-for many different reasons. The biggest reason is probably the fact that I have always been an animal lover and have fought against animal cruelty. For a long time I wanted to stop eating meat, because, to me, it seemed somewhat hypocritical of me to protest animal cruelty while eating animals that had been mistreated. I also find the thought of eating an animal slightly disturbing and I feel that it is a much healthier lifestyle. I used to have chronic heartburn and indigestion and would often get migraines-sometimes multiple times a week. Since I have been a vegetarian I don’t get sick nearly as often…which could, of course, be a mere coincidence. I realize that there are other alternatives than just eliminating the consumption of meat altogether, but this is definitely the best choice for me. PETA has great intentions, but they have given themselves a bad image. Instead of presenting facts to people to make them aware of the treatment of animals, they push vegetarianism/veganism onto them. I strongly believe that it is a persons’s choice to eat meat and do not condemn those who do. Although I don’t agree with some of what you said, I think it’s great that you backed up what you were saying with legitimate reasons. Most people who know that I am a vegetarian say it is stupid without actually giving reasons as to why they believe it is. I sometimes get questions regarding my choice from people who are simply trying to antagonize me. It’s good to know that someone who doesn’t necessarily agree with vegetarianism is willing to take the time to back up his/her outlook and to listen to other people’s opinions.
No thanks, I don’t think I’d like to do that.